tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6678481478994191244.post8249797365680895408..comments2024-03-24T03:19:39.745-04:00Comments on Just About Write: Problematic Palmer: What Went Wrong With This 'Arrow' CharacterUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6678481478994191244.post-41358020545773169282015-05-24T00:47:51.930-04:002015-05-24T00:47:51.930-04:00I wonder if TPTB will ever address the "Ray c...I wonder if TPTB will ever address the "Ray can be a won't take no creeper sometimes" thing. It really put me off when he said "most women would be flattered" comment. Like I said above I think episode 2 made me dislike Ray the MOST. It wasn't cute in any way and Ray ended up "winning" by Felicity choosing to work there. <br /><br />...Jen I've become almost zen about Ray but you've brought up all my issues with him again! Darn it.Lanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08423127322234506429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6678481478994191244.post-40262566997057129712015-05-23T22:04:58.612-04:002015-05-23T22:04:58.612-04:00People with their level of tech savvy can ping pho...<i>People with their level of tech savvy can ping phones and maneuver on the verge of stalking over technical expertise, and it can be seen as respect for each other's abilities and a recognition that their professional duo status could produce more than they could have ever produced alone. If it never went past technical desires, I think Ray could have evolved more easily into the billionaire with more gadgets than sense. Writing the romantic plot line just didn't work, because they never had a moment where they really tied off the professional process so it bled into the romantic storyline and made it creepy.</i><br /><br />Well, yeah, but this wasn't Cisco admiring Felicity as an equal or Felicity and the Bug-Eyed Bandit duking it out. This was a guy who was (as someone pointed out above) asserting his dominance over Felicity from the get-go. He wanted something from her. He didn't want her as a partner at first but as someone whose skill set he could utilize (for his own personal gain, mind you). Only in the romantic part of our story did the stalking/pinging become more prevalent. Ugh.<br /><br />They should have never pursued a romance. It served NO purpose for Felicity (who was already in love with Oliver and didn't really need Ray to figure that out in the end) and none for Oliver's trajectory. The most integral interactions Ray had with characters while on the series were with Cisco and OH WAIT. THAT WASN'T EVEN TECHNICALLY ON THIS SHOW.<br /><br />Matt, when you can figure out a purpose for Ray on Arrow other than setting up the spin-off, I am all ears because I am seriously coming up blank on this one.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11696902354009598893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6678481478994191244.post-67206525239596986972015-05-23T22:00:56.633-04:002015-05-23T22:00:56.633-04:00Thank you for your comment and compliment! :D
And...Thank you for your comment and compliment! :D<br /><br /><i>And what made it all the worse was his "most women would be flattered" comment. From the very beginning there was a gendered sexual dynamic to his behavior and his treatment of Felicity and I was creeped out by him immediately.</i><br /><br />This is an absolute perfect way of phrasing it. Also, #whyweneedfeminism. Because of men like Ray Palmer who WILL NOT LET US SAY NO.<br /><br /><i>And that could have been okay if his behavior had been addressed. If he'd been told that what he was doing was unacceptable. Instead, Felicity protested in the very beginning, but her objections were framed by him as a response to him taking the company from Oliver, as if she wouldn't have objected without this negative bias towards him. And then, at least in his mind, he was proved right by her eventual acceptance of his advances.<br /><br />And then when he's introduced to the Flash Gang, it became clear that the showrunners and writers themselves don't think his behavior was unacceptable when they added in the line from Felicity claiming the way they got together was "way less creepy than it sounds."</i><br /><br />Oh gosh, I had almost forgotten about that whole conversation in The Flash. Thank you for reminding me. Yeah, the writers saw NO problem with it. Marc Guggenheim thought it was appalling that anyone would think Ray was a stalker/creepy. I think if they would have taken a step back to examine how he was coming across instead of how they WANTED him to come across, they would have seen it clearly. But you're right -- they thought there was nothing wrong with him and it continued the problematic cycle.<br /><br /><i>Ray's story never seemed to further anything on Arrow at all, other than his own story.</i><br /><br />My friend Jen and I were texting about this recently and she said that if Ray was supposed to exist as a foil for Oliver, he should have had more of a purpose in Oliver's journey, especially in his journey to identity. But nothing Ray did ended up aiding in the decisions Oliver made at the end of the season. So... what WAS his point then, exactly? You and I may never know.<br /><br /><i>I felt a lot of Season Three was stalled out along the season, especially as they continued to just draaaaaaaag on the Hong Kong nonsence. Ray's story, and his lack of any interaction with anyone save Felicity, just felt like another stall.</i><br /><br />Let us all never have to see a Hong Kong flashback again, please. PLEASE.<br /><br />Thanks so much for your comments! :)Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11696902354009598893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6678481478994191244.post-66537181976375045072015-05-23T21:55:43.903-04:002015-05-23T21:55:43.903-04:00Hi there, Lanche! Thanks for your comments, first ...Hi there, Lanche! Thanks for your comments, first of all.<br /><br />Yeah, I do think Ray initially pursued Felicity for her intellect. So it makes it slightly less creepy, but only slightly. Because then... yeah. She repeatedly says "no" and he eventually wears her down. Eesh.<br /><br /><i>My biggest gripe with Ray is that his actions weren't addressed at all. I can get behind a grey character who does whatever he needs to succeed. I can't get behind someone who's meant to be super duper awesome but does REALLY socially unacceptable things.</i><br /><br />Hallelujah, amen. This is perfect.<br /><br /><i>The writers tried really hard to make me like him</i><br /><br />YUP. Literally, the more we resisted, the more they forced him upon us. And I know, yeah, scripts are written in advance and things are shot so they had no idea how we would feel. But... NO ONE thought this was a bad idea? I don't really like feeling like a character is being force-fed to me and that's how it felt with Ray. Like the writers were saying: "Well why WOULDN'T YOU LIKE HIM? HE'S SUCH A GOSH-DARN NICE GUY." And what you said is ABSOLUTELY perfect: they needed to follow the adage of "show, don't tell." If we had been allowed to see Ray be a socially acceptable human being, I would not have this problem.<br /><br />But alas, I do. And it was a problem.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11696902354009598893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6678481478994191244.post-54340331372783473492015-05-23T21:52:11.303-04:002015-05-23T21:52:11.303-04:00Becca, my love. Can we gather up all the women who...Becca, my love. Can we gather up all the women who think Twilight and 50 Shades are romance and hold an intervention for them? Because... NO. BIG NO.<br /><br /><i>Ray forced the conversation when he followed her from their place of work into her private life and she had to go and talk to him to prevent him finding the Foundry. That was an invasion to me and no justification will get me past that move.</i><br /><br />See, that's the thing about Ray's personality... he was pushy. He kept pushing himself into Felicity's life, trying to force her to talk when she clearly didn't want to. That's a troubling sign -- when a man cannot take "no" as the final answer. For all of his faults, Oliver always respects Felicity. She backed away in the alley and he didn't step toward her. He kept his distance. RESPECT WHEN WOMEN SAY "NO," RAY.<br /><br /><i>I'm not dogmatic when it comes to shipping. I believe you can have your fervent favourites and still enjoy other dynamics. Maybe it's because I don't believe in soulmates or The One or love-at-first-sight. I believe we all have the possibility of being truly happy in a number of situations. Human beings are incredibly complex and multidimensional and they are in flux all the time. My husband is the love of my life not because he is the only or "best" one in the world for me. He is the love of my life because I chose him and he chose me and we keep choosing that love and that life and working for it everyday.</i><br /><br />*standing ovation*<br /><br />*hands you a mic*<br /><br />*lets you drop it*<br /><br />#StopPatronizingShippers2k15Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11696902354009598893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6678481478994191244.post-50542282260430159442015-05-23T17:53:51.583-04:002015-05-23T17:53:51.583-04:00I think the switch from professional to romantic i...I think the switch from professional to romantic interests was done so poorly that the romantic story felt off from the start. People with their level of tech savvy can ping phones and maneuver on the verge of stalking over technical expertise, and it can be seen as respect for each other's abilities and a recognition that their professional duo status could produce more than they could have ever produced alone. If it never went past technical desires, I think Ray could have evolved more easily into the billionaire with more gadgets than sense. Writing the romantic plot line just didn't work, because they never had a moment where they really tied off the professional process so it bled into the romantic storyline and made it creepy. <br /><br />So the question is, why did they do that? Since he was going on to the next spinoff, they needed to flesh him out more, and they made a mess of it in the process. The entire story didn't help Arrow. What the ended up doing was finding something that made Hong Kong backstory feel like a break from the Ray/Felicity romantic bleh. <br /><br />Otherwise, I 100% agree with everything in this column.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10079066728808517579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6678481478994191244.post-62543838800737843872015-05-23T17:20:23.055-04:002015-05-23T17:20:23.055-04:00This is a really good assessment of everything I f...This is a really good assessment of everything I found problematic about Ray Palmer. I was appalled by his introduction: his buying the company she worked for so she was forced to work for him, his pinging her phone, his showing up at her place unannounced. And what made it all the worse was his "most women would be flattered" comment. From the very beginning there was a gendered sexual dynamic to his behavior and his treatment of Felicity and I was creeped out by him immediately.<br /><br />And that could have been okay if his behavior had been addressed. If he'd been told that what he was doing was unacceptable. Instead, Felicity protested in the very beginning, but her objections were framed by him as a response to him taking the company from Oliver, as if she wouldn't have objected without this negative bias towards him. And then, at least in his mind, he was proved right by her eventual acceptance of his advances.<br /><br />And then when he's introduced to the Flash Gang, it became clear that the showrunners and writers themselves don't think his behavior was unacceptable when they added in the line from Felicity claiming the way they got together was "way less creepy than it sounds."<br /><br />Now, there are lots of awful people who still make for great characters, but unfortunately Ray is not one of them. Like you said, his story never meshed with everyone else. Truly, his inclusion in the season never felt like an actual new character integration the way, say, Roy's did when he was introduced late in Season One. Ray's story never seemed to further anything on Arrow at all, other than his own story. I truly think if Ray had been left out of the season entirely, not a single element to the season would have changed. Instead, Ray's story felt like one big, long backdoor pilot (and, indeed, sort of was).<br /><br />I felt a lot of Season Three was stalled out along the season, especially as they continued to just draaaaaaaag on the Hong Kong nonsence. Ray's story, and his lack of any interaction with anyone save Felicity, just felt like another stall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6678481478994191244.post-49436777544774191972015-05-22T11:58:50.347-04:002015-05-22T11:58:50.347-04:00I agree with Becca that Palmer's actions at fi...I agree with Becca that Palmer's actions at first seemed fueled by his need of Felicity's brain. Still very off putting though after her repeated "No no no no". I think if episode 2 never happened I'd have a different perspective of Ray but it did and things were soured for me since then.<br /><br />My biggest gripe with Ray is that his actions weren't addressed at all. I can get behind a grey character who does whatever he needs to succeed. I can't get behind someone who's meant to be super duper awesome but does REALLY socially unacceptable things. They pretty much set him up as a villain! Unknown character swoops in and takes hero's company, then hero's night job then hero's girl. Eeeeeeeeh. Not to mention Felicity's acceptance of his behaviour. <br /><br />The writers tried really hard to make me like him and it seemingly bled into Felicity's reactions to him. I wish they spent the episode where Ray became Edward from Pretty Woman and Felicity the prostitute to set up her magnificent speech. Instead of a dress and necklace a scene where they discuss his plans and she highly approves. Boom!<br /><br />But in the end I really liked Ray. They removed the "good guy nonsense" and allowed him to just BE a good guy.Lanchehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08423127322234506429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6678481478994191244.post-60119742451459252282015-05-22T03:49:27.350-04:002015-05-22T03:49:27.350-04:00I am totally with you on the Twilight/Shades of Gr...I am totally with you on the Twilight/Shades of Grey dislike. I was working in a bookstore during the height of Twilight mania and it was disturbing because the customers were so young and they were swallowing that particular idea of "romance" with such enthusiasm. It gives me the willies. The books were badly written as well but my major problem was how both authors tended to characterize obsession and control as love. Icky. <br /><br />But on to Palmer. I am with you on disliking Palmer for all the reasons you laid out here. I was brought round to from dislike to lukewarm by the last few episodes. However, I will say I never filed his behavior at the beginning of the season as "romantic" overtures. I think those were mostly business decisions. Trying to convince Felicity to work for him and then buying her current employer were never moves that were driven by personal feelings (in my mind anyway). At that point Palmer was entirely focused on getting QC and the right personnel and tech to complete his suit. He felt Felicity's skills would be crucial to getting the chip to work right (which turned out to be correct) so he did pushy business things in order to get her on his team. Not pleasant and very pushy for sure (especially unpleasant because Felicity was dealing with Sara's death at the time) but in a business context I was willing to file it with other unpleasant business behavior that I'm sure is typical in competitive mega-corporations.<br /><br />The big turning point for me was "Draw Back Your Bow". That was where Palmer was surprised to realise that he had developed feelings for Ms Smoak and what could just be overly assertive business moves now become coloured by "personal feelings". And for me that made similar aggressive moves now REALLY unpleasant. When Ray pinged her phone (the second time) it wasn't because she was in danger or because he wanted to help her (not necessarily good reasons for trailing someone but better than just to make a girl talk to you). It was because he wanted her not to be cold to him anymore. She was noticeably wrapped up in some pretty serious stuff right before Oliver went away and Ray forced the conversation when he followed her from their place of work into her private life and she had to go and talk to him to prevent him finding the Foundry. That was an invasion to me and no justification will get me past that move. <br /><br />His character was less objectionable to me in other settings and I hope the character and actor have a good future. I just wish they could have given me a relationship for Felicity that was compelling instead of cringe-inducing. <br /><br />Like you I have no problem looking past my personal fav relationships to see the good in other pairings. I love Barry/Felicity and enjoy them whenever they are onscreen together whether there are real romantic possibilities or not. I thought Iris/Eddie was interesting and realistically done and I like that pairing. My heart will always belong to Oz but I totally understood the pairing of Willow/Tara on Buffy. Sure, I want Nick and Jess together as a couple but if they are both happy with others I will totally sign up to watch that because it has often been done well. I'm glad Cece and Schmidt found their way to each other but they have both had very compelling and entertaining relationships elsewhere. I'm not dogmatic when it comes to shipping. I believe you can have your fervent favourites and still enjoy other dynamics. Maybe it's because I don't believe in soulmates or The One or love-at-first-sight. I believe we all have the possibility of being truly happy in a number of situations. Human beings are incredibly complex and multidimensional and they are in flux all the time. My husband is the love of my life not because he is the only or "best" one in the world for me. He is the love of my life because I chose him and he chose me and we keep choosing that love and that life and working for it everyday. Beccanoreply@blogger.com